Thursday, July 15, 2010

You are 16, going on 17

I spent close to, or maybe a little over a year, trying to dodge Adam's calls. We weren't officially "courting", so I didn't see why I had to speak with him any more than I was allowed to speak to other male "friends of the family" that called. Unfortunately, my father had decided that we should get to know each other better and that was the end of that discussion.

Adam was a very pushy guy. Many of his questions seemed inappropriate, even if they would've been asked in a normal dating situation. He would ask the standards:
How many children do you want? Will you pledge to allowing the Lord to open and close your womb?
How do you feel about debt? Would you be willing to sacrifice and go without in order to start OUR lives out with no debt?
Would you allow me my patriarchal authority or would you insist on an equal partnership (said like it was bad thing)?
He would also ask the strange questions:
How often do you think about physical intimacy (sex)?
When do you think about it? Am I part of your fantasy?
If we were alone, would we need a chaperone?
How often should a married couple have relations? Would you allow your husband the freedom to try new things?

Later, as I was speaking to the brother who didn't consumate his marriage for six months, I got to watch the horrified face of this brother as I relayed these questions from Adam. He said that Adam was definitely not following the ATI/IBLP, courtly love script. I didn't figure he was.

In any case, I never "fell" for Adam. He wasn't right for me. He was right for my dad, however! Adam's family wasn't a founding family but they owned a lot of land and were of interest to certain people in Gothard circles because they had what most QF families don't have - a boatload of money. Getting Adam married into an "established" ATI family could help insure that his family would stay in and all of that land/money would stay in ATI circles. At least, that's my opinion, I don't have solid proof. Why else would my dad push so heavily for it though? I didn't even know Adam in the way that most women know the man they'll marry.

When I was sixteen, going on seventeen, Adam's family came for another visit and it was on this visit that Adam asked to court me, with the understanding that we would become engaged in less than a year and married as soon as I was eighteen. His request was one of the most humiliating events in my life. We had just sat down around two long tables for dinner in a squished livingroom. Adam came around to the girl's table and took my hand. I stood up and there, in front of every member of my family, he proposed the courtship (almost exactly as I stated it above) and presented me with a piece of jewelry. I was caught of guard and didn't know what to say so I started crying. People in the room saw what they wanted to see and mistook my tears for tears of joy. I guess they missed my attempt to untangle my hand from Adam's and run for the door (it was too crowded or I would have). As they applauded and wished us luck, I'm not even sure I answered his request/demand. Before I knew it, I was being led to the table he was sitting at and my place setting was being moved by his brother. And with that I was officially pre-engaged to the boy I didn't know and didn't like.

45 comments:

  1. wow, that breaks my heart. :( i don't understand why parents wouldn't even take their kid's comfort level into consideration. most parents try to hold their kids back from dating... i can't imagine being pushed into it before i was ready! i'm so sorry you had to go through this.

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  2. Oh wow! Sounds like Adam had some "unresolved conflicts" of his own. He should have been more worried about resolving those than becoming pre-engaged to a minor.

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  3. So, your dad sold you to the highest bidder, eh? Very glad to hear that you are out of that mess and getting a decent education.

    What kind of a young man would want to be engaged to a woman who didn't even like him? I can see the attraction for some men in patriarchy - a woman who will do exactly what she is told as soon as she is told and as many times as she is told to do it. Those sex questions were especially telling.

    Abuse is certainly found in modern marriages, but patriarchy just leaves the door wide open for even borderline men to become monsters. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Patriarchy leaves a woman with no defense, no recourse - where men are demi-gods.

    Jennifer

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  4. Wow, that's so humiliating. Every part of it.

    Did you tell your dad about the sex questions Adam was asking? Seems like even Darth Daddy couldn't have defended that!

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  5. That sounds just horrible. I am so glad that I DO NOT have parents that are like that. I was in a relationship for almost a year w/ someone who was a self-centered, immature mama and grandma's boy, it was the worst experience of my life, however, I have free will and I got out and it was the best decision of my life, I do not know what I would do if what happened to you happened to me. As I have said before I am soo glad that you got out. I can only imagine what your life would have been like if you ended up w/ "Adam"

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  6. We have much in common! I am so sorry for the hurt and pain that you went through. :( Its a terrible way to be forced to live.

    I have been following you for awhile, but I am planning on adding you to my blogroll stat.
    Come by and visit me at http://www.chandra-bernat.blogspot.com

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  7. I also wanted to add this, I can't beleive that "Adam" would ask you such personal questions, that just seems wrong to me. How at 16 almost 17 would you know any of those answers, also what did you say to him when he ask you these questions?

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  8. Oh honey, I am so so so sorry. This is sick and perverted--there are no other terms to describe what you had to go through! UGH!!!!!!!!! "Will you pledge to allowing the Lord to open and close your womb?" UGH UGH UGH!!!!!

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  9. I applaud you for not slapping his smug face, hard. Try new things? Try a knuckle sandwich on for size, Asshole.

    You are amazingly strong, Ruth.

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  10. This sounds like certain nightmares I had at that age!

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  11. YUCK!!! What did you say in response to those invasive and icky questions? Being forced into that kind of false emotional intimacy would feel like such a violation. YUCK again!

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  12. Words can't describe the contempt I feel for your sperm donor, Ruth. You were just a means to an end for him. Entirely expendable. I'm glad you've gotten to witness the way a real father interacts with his wife and children. May you find the man of your dreams, true love and children when/if you are ready for them.

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  13. That is just beyond the pale. I'd just love for Darth Pater to hop on the comments now and try to explain THAT away. You know, with FACTS, and maybe something besides "Ruth is lying," which she clearly isn't.

    Ick ick ick.

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  14. Ruth, I am so sorry you were made to go through this. :-( Thank the Lord you were able to escape a life of being hostage to this horrible man. I question the sanity of any "father" who would willingly put their child through what your dad put you through; it's selfish, wrong, and sickening.

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  15. Dear God Ruth....I have been following your blog from almost day one. I have a friend that is in the ATI loop. Shesmy best friend and right now she is in Big Sandy for the summer. Her parentsare honestly off their rocker and I have had to watch her go through eating disorders and find out about her being hit and abused. She is a Christian and loves the Lord but she doesn't realize how unhealhty and screwed up this Gothard crap is. All I can pray for is that God shows her a way out. But reading your blog I can identify with alot of stuff you have been sharing because of some things she has gone through. I am sick to my stomach reading this and I am so sorry you had to go through that. Praise God you got out and are sharing your story. That takes guts but you never know....your story could touch many. Keep writing. God bless you!

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  16. Lauren H. said...

    "Wow, that's so humiliating. Every part of it.

    Did you tell your dad about the sex questions Adam was asking? Seems like even Darth Daddy couldn't have defended that!"

    Of course he could, the same way he's defended every horrific event Ruth has shared with us. He'll say 1) she's lying, 2) she defrauded him somehow and so brought it on herself, and 3) how dare she even consider her own feelings on the matter when he had decided - excuse me, when God had revealed to him her purpose in life. Intersperse some complaints about her lack of a JOY-full spirit and how she's desecrated herself and her family name with her rebellion.

    Honestly, does he ever say anything else? His whole theology in a nutshell (no pun intended): What he says is right, and anyone who contradicts him is in league with the devil. Really, I'm not sure why he even bothers posting, since we're obviously all shameless heathens.

    Ruth, every post from you just makes me admire your strength and spirit more - and makes me that much more worried for the sisters still caught there. May you continue to forge your path to freedom and happiness. And may your sisters find their own path too.

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  17. Was anyone else around when Adam was asking these inappropriate questions? ATI couples seem to always be chaperoned. Was you chaperone(s) just not paying attention?
    Anyway, amazing that he wouldn't ask some less invasive questions like What are your interests, hobbies, favourite music, rather than straight to the sex stuff. And with a totally sheltered girl with no worldly experience. That must have been awful.
    - MrsYoungie

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  18. Would you allow your husband the freedom to try new things?


    Ugh, Creepy!

    Interesting, though, that he phrases it as if you would be allowed to refuse, which doesn't sound like the way things typically worked with him.

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  19. That phrasing is deeply creepy. Would you allow your husband the freedom to try new things? No? You won't allow your husband freedom? Not very biblical, are you?

    Even assuming that this guy was conditioned into jerkhood, he really went above and beyond. Ruth, did any other family members know about the questions he was asking you? I can't wait to read about how you eventually got out of there.

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  20. "Would you allow your husband the freedom to try new things?" Would those "new things" be "Gothard approved"? I was under the impression that "Gothard approved sex" was the missionary position only, 30 second, wham-bam-thank-you-maam encounter, and on fertile days only (with the husband keeping track of his wife's menstrual cycle. Yeah, very NORMAL, but what else is new with these creeps). Seriously, Ruth, this "Adam" and his family sound like a bunch of lunatics regardless of religious affiliation. Good thing you got out of there pronto. No, there is NOTHING normal with these people. They are sick and twisted perverts who need the doll of the month club subscription (at best).

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  21. Sweet Ruth,

    I hope you truly know in your heart, that ATI is not of God; nor is it of the grace of His Son or the mercy and love that is found in many who follow Him. They (ATI) are wolves in sheep clothing. I pray God gives you the strength to continue your mission; and that you are covered in His unfailing love and protection.

    Blessings,
    Sue

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  22. Ruth, you are such an amazing writer. Please keep up the gift God has so clearly given you.

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  23. Yeah, me thinks Adam was a bit of a twisted puppy there. I see a lot of perverted people in my daily work week and those questions weren't going anywhere positive.

    I should rephrase that. Those questions weren't going anywhere a properly bred ATI girl would go. There are a lot of people who probably wouldn't have even blinked about what "new things" he had in mind, but I have a feeling it would have shocked the hell out of you on your wedding night.

    I'm glad you got away from this group, Ruth. Trust your instincts.

    Cyn

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  24. Disgusting. I'm a lurker, posting only once before, but this last entry outlines a masculine entitlement that is beyond evil.

    What this "boy" was essentially demanding of you was willing obscene self-degradation, and thank the Good Lord... you escaped, Ruth.

    C'mon Daddy Darth...tell us all about why you would deliver your precious daughter into the hands of this loathsome creep...

    Tell us all about how God would be pleased. We are waiting.

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  25. Just like the FLDS............at least he was young....sorry.

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  26. Boys like that grow up to be men like Darth Daddy.

    Im sorry, Ruth.

    -Jenny

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  27. Ruth, you might want to read Mercedes Lackey's Arrow's Flight. It's the first book in a fantasy trilogy, and the protagonist is a teen girl who flees her patriarchial, polygamistic home after she's told that an arranged marriage will be made for her. I think you might appreciate the story-and Talia, like you, is stronger than her family believed.

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  28. The first book in that trilogy is "Arrows of the Queen" -- Arrow's Flight is book two, and Arrow's Fall is book three. I think Ruth would either really enjoy them (because Talia is so similar to Ruth in some ways -- she also kind of works as a nanny, later, because of her extensive experience with little kids) or really hate them for that same reason.

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  29. Would you allow me my patriarchal authority or would you insist on an equal partnership (said like it was bad thing)?

    My alarm bells are ringing loudly here! In other words: a husband can do what he likes and if his wife dare question him, she is in rebellion.

    Ugh.

    How often do you think about physical intimacy (sex)?
    When do you think about it? Am I part of your fantasy?
    If we were alone, would we need a chaperone?
    How often should a married couple have relations? Would you allow your husband the freedom to try new things?


    Creepy, creepy, creepy!

    I am glad for you, Ruth, that you have escaped this oppressive, misogynist and yes, ABUSIVE, perversion of the Christian faith, which seems no better to me than the fundamentalism of the Taliban.

    -- Philippa

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  30. this type of courting is insulting on so many levels

    1. why would a guy be interested in a girl that is clearly not interested in him
    that is pathetic

    2. when someone is overly interested in me before they even know one ioda about me.. it is insulting. they are only interested in their made up view of who they think i am
    it is not flattering and pretty disrespectful

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  31. I can completely understand how a teenage boy raised to believe that God has a mission for him and that that mission is to impregnate his wife a lot might get pretty weird about it. The last thing teenage boys need is to be taught that women - any woman, even if it's only one - is completely subject to their wishes. In anything. The lesson of adolescence is supposed to be how to reconcile the imperatives of biology with caring about and respecting other human beings and being part of the fabric of a human community. Believing that God/your father is going to deliver a woman whose job it is to give you satisfaction in every arena without argument is just the worst possible lesson I can think of for a teenage boy - it's completely contrary to the moral imperatives I consider vital to a teenager's maturation.

    This, to me, is the kicker: Christian Patriarchial literature does go on about how they are protecting their children from heartbreak and breakups. But sometimes heartbreak and breakups are the result of someone else setting clear boundaries when you are misbehaving. It can be another human being teaching you the lesson that you can't walk all over them and that they aren't responsible for fulfilling your needs at the detriment of their own. Heartbreak and breakups can also be the result of someone who can't respect your wishes and needs removing themselves from your life. If a relationship is going badly, a broken heart is often the least unhealthy consequence.

    I hope you broke this boy's heart. I hope it was the lesson that he needed to learn.

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  32. Ok, everybody, are these comments from Adam really so "creepy?" This is a young man who has been taught somehow that a wife exists to serve him. He has the classic one thing on his mind and he wants to be sure that she will serve his wants. This is all about him, just like pron ;) and masturb***. Many counselors have noted that, for some men, a wife is little more than a masturb*** tool.

    Yes, this is grossly wrong and evil. Yes, this was incredibly hurtful and cruel toward a 14 year old girl. Yes, daddy is a BIG part of that cruelty and seriously responsible. Yes, this reveals an ugly truth about the legalist system (after all, how does this ATI boy know about "new things?") But should we really be surprised that these thoughts are in the mind of a young stud being brought up in a hypocritical repressive culture? The fact that he simply spoke his mind seems amazing to me, but it must have been communicated to him that he was entirely safe.

    Okay, so this whole business is creepy. But it's the system, the idea that legalism can get away with such hypocrisy. If creepy means that it sends chills down your spine when you think of those who have been used and damaged, then, yes, Gothard is creepy and daddy is creepy and ATI is creepy and legalism is creepy and mean people in general are creepy.

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  33. Yes, the suggestions from "Adam" ARE creepy if he is supposedly a product of ATI training and upbringing. Apparently, he must have some German dungeon porn magazines lying amidst his Wisdom booklets because his comments are OFF. I don't know why he would ask Ruth if she was open to "experimenting". The person he should be asking is Gothard as he is their lord and master and whatever he says goes. If Gothard says it's okay, then ya know it's okay. If "Adam" was such a "Godly man" (as defined by ATI standards), then he shouldn't be deviating from Gothard's allowable practices to begin with. If God wanted him to think on his own, he wouldn't have created Gothard. Gothard will do all the thinking, you just shut up and follow the program, thank you. If Adam doesn't believe this, then obviously he is in "rebellion" with God, and should therefore be punished with stoning or perhaps cutting off his appendages as they might "offend."

    Message to Adam and the rest of the closet perverts: Time to get the umbrella of protection and stick it where the sun doesn't shine because you give me a headache. Like I said in my earlier post, the only "woman" that you deserve is an inflatable doll.

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  34. Ok, everybody, are these comments from Adam really so "creepy?" This is a young man who has been taught somehow that a wife exists to serve him. He has the classic one thing on his mind and he wants to be sure that she will serve his wants. This is all about him, just like pron ;) and masturb***. Many counselors have noted that, for some men, a wife is little more than a masturb*** tool.


    Yes, yes it is creepy. That we can understand where the creepiness comes from doesn't change that.

    Now, it could well be that Adam was only referring to the kind of "different things" that mainstream couples take for granted in their sex lives*. However, it would still be creepy because:

    1. Usually a couple waits until they already have a physically intimate relationship before they start talking about "changing things up"; and

    2. He doesn't ask if she would like to try new things (i.e. with him). It's clear that these "new things" are things he would do (i.e. to her).

    *However, if I were a 15 year-old girl and knew he had been brought up on a doctrine of the total subjugation of women to men, I would have close to zero confidence "new things" meant anything so benign.

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  35. "Adam" is not just creepy as the product of a twisted system. Ruth says straight out that her brother, also raised in the same twisted system, was horrified by what Adam was saying. A system that has children being paired off with people they don't even know is bad enough, but Adam takes that even further. He uses the protection of being a male in ATI to indulge his own fantasies, deviating entirely from what the system would consider proper discussion for courting.

    ATI/Gothardism is sick for enabling this kind of behavior. Adam is sick for using that system to sexually harass a young girl, beyond the strictures that even the system considers acceptable.

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  36. thank you @purpleshoes i really appreciated your perspective on things.

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  37. Would you share more about your brother that you mentioned? He just seems so the opposite of your father and Adam.

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  38. @ Purpleshoes - "The lesson of adolescence is supposed to be how to reconcile the imperatives of biology with caring about and respecting other human beings and being part of the fabric of a human community."

    Quoted for truth.

    @ Lodrelhai - "Adam is sick for using that system to sexually harass a young girl, beyond the strictures that even the system considers acceptable."

    This may be purely wishful thinking on my part, and I don't say this to defend Adam in any way, but... "sick" is not the only possible diagnosis. It's possible that "young" and "ignorant" figure prominently in the behavior, too. Not only was Adam raised in a system that privileges masculinity, but he was also (if I'm reading this correctly) raised in an all-boy household.

    Ruth's brother was appalled by the kinds of questions Adam asked, but he had sisters. Adam didn't. So while Adam (almost certainly) knew his questions were inappropriate, he may not have had any real idea just how inappropriate. And, of course, he assumed - correctly, it seems - that there would be no consequence to him for behaving badly.

    I suppose I'm basically just hoping that this is something that Adam could and did grow out of, rather than a symptom of a lifelong character trait. The lesson of adolescence (as Purpleshoes describes it) is often learned by making mistakes, and I hope (perhaps naively) that Adam eventually recognized this as a mistake, regretted it, and learned from it.

    There's a thought in here about how victimizers were so often victims themselves, but I can't nail it down well enough to add it... which means it's time to stop typing.

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  39. @ purpleshoes Another thank you. Well said. May I quote you? =)

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  40. I hope it's ok that I quoted and linked--I don't think there's anything objectionable and it was PRO-You!! Here's the link
    http://hopewellmomschoolreborn.blogspot.com/2010/07/cookbook-giveaway-click-here.html

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  41. Though this has been touched on before, I want to say that I'm very disturbed that you didn't have a way to get taken seriously if you were to say "I feel uncomfortable with this man and with courtship at this time of my life. I would like to wait until I'm older and to find a man with whom I feel more personally compatible. This feeling is only getting stronger as I get to know Adam better."

    Given your JOY training, did you have the words to express a sentiment like that? Would this have been treated as disrespect to your parents and/or God?

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  42. As inappropriate as Adam's questions seem, I really don't find the idea of a teenage boy trying to discuss sex with a girl really that out of the ordinary. Most boys I knew in high school and the early years of college, even the Christian ones, would try and talk about sex almost as soon as they were out of adult hearing. Teenage hormones make them obsessed with sex but they often don't know how to express that yet in appropriate ways, it's simply part of being an adolescent. The major difference in this scenario is that Ruth either never told Adam or anyone else this was bothering her or nobody listened, either of which is a major problem. In my personal experience when someone made me uncomfortable I could tell them to stop and they usually did, but I was taught from a young age that I had that right and I knew the adults in my life would support me if I needed it.
    For all the talk of father's protecting their daughters that goes on in the Christian patriarchy movement many father's set their daughters up to be abuse victims by not teaching them when and how to stand up for themselves. One thing I have to question about this whole situation is that if Ruth's father was planning to guard her chastity, or however the ATI people would phrase it, then why was she permitted to talk to this young man alone? Most people I know who practice Christian courtship do not allow a couple, particularly a couple who are still teenagers, to talk alone on the phone until they are engaged, someone always listens in or they talk on speaker phone in a public room of the house. It seems out of character that such a controlling man as Ruth's father would just let this slide, not that anything in his world really made sense anyways....

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  43. That was not 'talking about sex'. That was Adam screening Ruth to judge his ability to exert his sexual will over her. All of those questions made up a litmus test for him - notice that he didn't once ask her 'what turns you on?' or any Biblespeak version of that. He just wanted to know if he could expect her to participate in his control fetish.

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  44. Honestly, I feel just as bad for that poor boy who was brainwashed in that way. Yes, the questioning was creepy, but he is also very much a victim of this ATI abuse. He was still a boy. :-(

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  45. @ Purpleshoes, Well said!! Thank you!

    Interesting that in ATI circles, one never is actually expected to transition into community as a responsible adult. Your parents always hear from God for you!

    You would hardly be allowed to be a child with the blanket training, then on to military mind games of obedience, then further gender role training and segregation, then prearranged spousal selection and at the point of becoming the head of household for the male (and domination of a woman) - he is now mature!

    Wowsers!

    x-ATI pilot daughter

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