Monday, January 2, 2012

Notes from Father

Some of you called it. My dad couldn't resist weighing in on my break-up with Harris. He e-mailed me using this blog's e-mail and we had a short correspondence. He "dared" me to post it on this blog and "give him an audience". What he doesn't understand is that this doesn't make him look particularly favourable. However, I suspect he's channelling VF/ATI/QF people here to read (just based on traffic reports).

DAD: you asked for it. Our exchange. Also, dad, if you want your chance to voice your opinions, this is your post. You stated in your e-mails that you wished people would talk to people like you, people who know "the reality" of living a "Godly, Bible based" lifestyle. You said you think this blog is giving people a false message. So here you go, Dad! If you want the chance to answer questions yourself, I have made it so you can answer them. Use the name I x-ed out of our conversation so *I* know it's you and I'll leave the answers up for all to read.

We are praying for you this Christmas eve daughter. You need the grace and forgivness of GOD for only HE and HE alone can give you the solice you suffer for at this time. Marriage is a GODGIVEN COVENANT and only HE knows who HE has made for your heart and this is the enevitable end that we knew you would face as soon as you left my umbrella of protection. ****(Harris) was the fruit of your lustful heart when only prayerful silence can show the one GOD has for you. You walked away from that love bound through HIM and into the arms of another man. You have sinned my daughter and only repententing to the CREATOR can help you now. We invite your back. Your mother and I have prayed about asking you to come home and be an example in CHRIST. We will forgive you for everything that you have done including the pain you caused our family. You won't have to struggle financially or look for love in the damaged world. Our gift to you for Christmas is prayer and forgiveness. Love through HIM who gives us strength, Father.
The pain I feel is magnified by your e-mail. Why does your love always include strings? It would've been an amazing gift to simply let me know that you care. The best gift of all would've been to open an e-mail from you with three words- "I love you." That would have told me you truly felt my pain. Dad, Harris was a good man...he just wasn't the right man for me at this time. I don't need your forgiveness, dad. I need your support and your love. I think far too much has happened for me to return to your home. I appreciate the offer.

Its always thus with you, daughter. You want what only GOD can give but you deny HIM and only GOD gives the love you need. Our church family would like to sponsor you even to enroll you in a college of our choosing. We will pray with you to be who GOD wants you to be. Your life is lacking and you know it's true my daughter for GOD has told us all through these tragic life trials you have faced since you started this blog of lies that you will never have the sweetness of GOD'S PLAN until you submit to the life you were born to live instead of the illnesses injuries and, suffering you get from your worldly life. Your blog is keeping our lifestyle in a negative place when you know people live this life happily. I know you support homosexuals having a choice in their lifestle then you tell us we're wrong to ask them to submit to God's authority but you won't let us live quietly in peace with our choices that are sanction IN HIM. Give GOD a voice or give a strong household a voice instead of mocking them and us. Your a hipocritical girl the reality be you will not allow a GODLY man to impact this story you tell. I can't comment without your say. I will show you this is the life for you if you just allow God a voice.
And what if I came home, dad? What would life be like? This college of your choice would be where? Would you choose my major? Can't you see that my life my be horrible, but also understand that at least it's *my life*? Have your voice, dad! Respond to my blog using the name ********** and I will leave it for all you read. I'm not afraid of God's voice or yours. Just know they are not the one-and-the-same, dad.

That's where it ended.
Time will tell.


  1. Your father is vile.

  2. Ruth,

    You might want to do some research on Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Your father is a classic case. I am "in recovery" from a toxic relationship with an NPD parent, and researching the disorder was a pretty empowering experience.


    PS. He is attempting to manipulate you in a time of emotional strain and hardship. Don't forget: that's a seriously messed up way to treat another human being.

  3. It's a shame your dad can't tell the difference between who God wants you to be and who he wants you to be. It's like the whole "umbrella of protection" thing. He thinks he can control whom God chooses to protect and whom he doesn't. It's amazing you turned out to be such a rational person with a a father who confuses himself with God.

  4. What is this using this archaic language? Does he think he's the patriarch of patriarchs or something? Haven't at least 2 of his children left his fold because of his bullying and aberrant behavior?

    Hey Darth Daddy,
    Wanna stand toe to toe with me? I'm a good Christian, have been for close to 60 years. I've raised my children with love and compassion and let them fall on their own but have been there to pick them up with love, and sent them back on their way. Hon, it's not all about you,you, you! It's about Ruth and her discovery of life after Daddy. If you can't be decent to her and give her the encouragement she needs without strings, then leave her alone.

    the amulbunny.

  5. Wow.
    Father-dearest does even further damage to the lifestyle he's afraid you portray negatively. The lack of support for a hurting daughter, in the name of religion, no less, is disgusting.

  6. Amy has a good point. Dad does exhibit characteristics of narcissism in his email. I invite you or your readers to check out what I have been writing about narcissists, particularly in a Christian context. Each Friday, I share "It's Narcissist Friday!" posts to help people understand what's going on in relationship with these folks. Narcissists can be very difficult to understand and even harder to live with.

    Click on my avatar to check out the Wordpress blog: Grace for my Heart.

  7. Yeah...

    Um...I'd also like to point out that the "trials" you have experienced, while hard, hearbreaking, and physically painful...are NOT "tragic." People struggle financially. People struggle to get through school. People end relationships. People get into car accidents and people injure their ankles. Life happens.

    The only tragedy here is your upbringing, at the hands of a brute and a spineless mother. (I know you love your Mom and Dad, Ruth...and it is not to hurt you that I call it as I see it.) That you survived the degradation heaped on you as well as you have is truly remarkable. You will get through this, and you will prevail...

  8. To Ruth's dad, from one Christian parent to another:

    Surely you would agree that we are all sinners saved by grace. Surely you would agree that even the most conscientious parent sins against his children sometimes. Would it be so hard to say to Ruth, "I was wrong, too. Please, will you forgive me?"

  9. Oh wow, I'm with the others, this man has a pretty serious case of NPD going on. He seems to think he's God personified.

    That said, I must say something to you, Ruth, and that's that I'm proud of you, for whatever that's worth from a stranger. :) And in some ways I can understand where you're coming from.

    While my father is not quite like yours, he for many years made me feel like I would not survive in the world without his financial help. Where some parents strive to inspire independence in their children so that they can live on their own and make it in life, some parents are sadly codependent and want their kids to depend on them all their life so they make the kids feel like they can't live without them.

    Well this also extended to my husband, in that my parents also tried to get him to think we wouldn't be able to afford to live without their help. And it was true to an extent. We would not afford to live in their area without help as it was incredibly expensive.

    We just moved to another part of the state where the cost of living is significantly lower and on New Year's Eve we just celebrated the 2 year anniversary of home ownership. And while sometimes it's tough and some months we're living paycheck to paycheck, especially with a new baby added to the mix, I couldn't be happier, because we are proving to ourselves that we can survive without their help. :)

    And so can you, hon. :) It won't be easy but as you've found, a lot of people struggle when trying to support themselves. That doesn't mean you'll fail, but rather that'll mean you'll feel that much more triumphant! :)

  10. You're father thinks he speaks for God. How sad.

    -Lauren H.

  11. Your father's (sorry, but he's not a "dad") words say nothing about you and everything about him and none of it good. He is emotionally or mentally compromised and you need to put his words behind you and out of your mind as much as possible.

    Parents who love their children do NOT jump at the opportunity to kick them while they're down, so even if he was right about anything - which he *isn't* - he's still a crappy parent. You don't need that in your life.

  12. To Ruth's dad:
    Your life, and your constantly harping on Ruth to repent, has NOTHING to do with God. It has everything to do with control. You would rather see your daughter marry a man who hits her and makes her miserable than a man who loves her and respects her as a person. That is NOT called being "godly", it's called being a horrible father who is only concerned with his own prestige.

    Your idea of "family" is manipulation, pure and simple. You USE "God" to make other people do what YOU want them to do. It has nothing to do with faith, love, or helping your neighbor, like Jesus taught. Instead, it is about serving your own needs and upholding the reputation of your cult.

    I sincerely hope that Ruth, and all your children, find someone who can respect them and embody Jesus' true teachings... that of love and non-judgment.

  13. Good God, this was like reading something my ex-husband would write. **Shudder**

    Ruth, honey, lots of people are struggling financially. It's just the times we are living in right now. Things are tight all over the place. Adding a family to the mix is not going to make that part any easier. My being married has not saved me from financial worry. Letting my first husband control the money did not keep us from financial worry ( I barely got out with my own credit rating unscathed, he went bankrupt.)

    Your going to school is a struggle, but once you acheive your goal, you will be so happy you did. YOU WILL ACCOMPLISH THIS. Keep going, keep pressing forward. You are getting closer all the time. So many of us want you to succeed and although you feel discouraged now, it won't be like this for forever. You're just in a bit of a funk and YOU WILL COME OUT OF IT. Spring is on the way. The days are getting longer and there is a little more sunlight everyday.

    God uses all kinds of ways to speak to us. Not to sound like a glory hound, but if you're encouraged by what people who actually support you are telling you, then perhaps God is using us to comfort you.

    You father is abusing you. He's kicking you while you are down. That's what abusers do. They get all magnanomous when they know you are at your weakest and use that to their advantage. They think they are being humble by gracing you with their self-important wisdom, when all the are really trying to is control the conversation.

    MR. X....Ruth has done nothing to be forgiven for. Nothing. You, sir, however, have A LOT to be sorry for and yet you speak to Ruth as though you are infallible. You are a mere mortal like all the rest of us and Ruth is an EQUAL heir to the kingdom of God as a sister in Christ. She doesn't get it through you or because of you. She gets it because it is God's gift to HER. It's not for YOU to grant to her as you see fit. And it's not for you to ordain whatever relationship she chooses to have with God/Christ. THAT is strictly between HER and HIM. YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE A SAY IN IT. How about you stick to your own relationship with Christ and get all the kinks worked out of it, because I'm guessing there are some issues of your own there.

    She has not run away from God because she has chosen a different path than the one you think she ought to take. She is not a sinner because she is taking a step back and questioning her life up to now. She is not in rebellion because she sees a different way of living. She is not mocking you because she expresses doubts about how healthy your "lifestyle" is. If your lifestyle is so great and so solid and so godly, then why are you so defensive that Ruth has chosen another way?

  14. How far did you father get in elementary school before he dropped out? The man is obviously barely literate, and he wants to choose your educational path? Ruth, m'dear, (Look! Commas!) you are so much better off without that nonsense in your life!

  15. (Apologies for the language ahead of time)

    Your dad is quite an asshole, and his inability to spell or use grammar kind of serve as a perfect metaphor for why he's also unable to understand scripture & emotionally stunted as a human being.

    If your dad is reading this, here's a hint. There is no part of humanity that isn't damaged/broken. You can't protect your daughter from "the damaged world", cause you and everyone you know are just as damaged. Read the Bible, and have someone explain it to you. You've missed the entire point.

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  17. What an evil, evil man. The nicest thing you can do for him is to pray for God to soften his heart, to hear your prayers for him to actually become the father God wants him to become.

    I'm horrified by the spiritual abuse. As always, peace and love to you. You may be struggling now, Ruth, but this is temporary. You will get through this, and be stronger for the struggle.

  18. As an atheist, I'm going to ignore the vile message in his e-mails (only because I know that because I'm an atheist, woman, and lesbian, Darth Daddy would just dismiss anything I had to say about it out-of-hand)

    I would like to point out the choice of wording in his e-mails. Something that stuck out as a red flag was that he only addresses you as "daughter" or "my daughter". That's often the sign of someone with NPD and/or who is deeply, pathologically controlling. It shows that you do not exist or have value outside of your relation to him. Also, considering his view of a man's rights over his wife and children, it shows a blatant attempt to “put you in your place”.

  19. Stay strong, Ruth! I can't believe how much you've been through. Things will get better; just don't listen to any of your father's manipulations.

  20. Mister Ruth's-Father,

    I hate addressing people without having something to call them, so if you don't mind I'll use an earlier commenter's example and refer to you as Mr. X.

    Ruth is giving you a very generous opportunity, here. She has given you a chance to talk directly to a rather large audience of people who clearly don't understand your lifestyle or see why anyone would find it appealing, let alone compelling. This is your chance to explain it to us.

    A lot of us have already criticized you, your parenting, and your lifestyle. I can see why you might not want to respond to that. But you can still offer us another perspective. You can tell us about your lifestyle, and Ruth has promised to publish whatever you have to say.

    So, please: fill me in. I've only ever heard about the Quiverfull movement, Gothard, and ATI through this blog and others like it. Give me the other side of the story. Why do you live the way you do? What does it do for you? What does it have to offer for people like me, who aren't a part of it? Why is it important to you? You say people are happy with that lifestyle - what about it makes them happy? (And do any of them have any real basis for comparison?)

    Because right now, I don't see any reason to think that Quiverfull is anything other than a borderline cult populated by control freaks and their victims. From what I've seen here, it doesn't promote any sort of decent education. For that matter, it appears to offer a very warped and unflattering view of God - seriously, you think the all-knowing and all-seeing Creator of the Universe can't find a better way to communicate than causing traffic accidents? Really???

    That's how Quiverfull looks to me: deeply controlling, hiding away from the larger world, and providing its adherents with poor education and worse theology.

    So tell me why I'm wrong about you. Tell me what it's really like. Tell me how your beliefs can save us from ourselves, and bring us all back to a right relationship with God. Or, if that's completely off-base, give me some other reason to think you - all of you - aren't just barking mad.

  21. Ruth, I echo what all the above posters have said. There are some really wise, thoughtful comments on this page, because there are a lot of really wise, thoughtful people out here in the "damaged" world.

    Please remember, God will make his will known to YOU, not to your dad. You left for a reason, and you don't want to go back for a reason. (OK, probably a multitude.) Don't let him wear you down. You have come so far, and yes, it is very hard, but you are surviving.

    I am very proud of you. It won't be easy, it won't be fast, and some days it won't feel right--but you deserve it. Don't forget that.

    And Mr. Ruth's Biological Father, may Jesus Christ have mercy on your soul, because you're going to need it.

  22. My goodness, the father certainly isn't well educated, is he? He is the one that needs to go to college, and take some English classes.

  23. A year and a half ago, my husband was at a crossroads in his grad school program. He failed a critical exam, and his schooling was put back an entire year because this exam is only given once a year. To say we were devastated at this unexpected turn of events was an understatement. However, we both felt that God had put us on this path and we didn't believe that this was the end of the road. I told him them and I'll say it to you now: God didn't bring you this far along this path to abandon you. Your faith may be shaken by recent events, but this is not the end.

    Like others have mentioned, you don't need a man to be able to pray or discern God's will for your life. You managed to escape from this horrific cult of spiritual abuse and He's not going to leave you hanging now.

    Thinking of you tonight.

  24. I will comment more later, but the biggest thing that I see in this correspondence is a lack of education. I hate to be blunt, but I would be hesitant to trust someone with my college education when their spelling is so terrible. This is the same reaction that I had when I read the correspondence from the person that was "chosen" for you. Both posts scream ignorance.

  25. Well well, Ruth's father has shown his true narcissistic colors. I suspect he's possibly Borderline Personality Disordered too. There's all kinds of red flags in his emails.

    Ruth, you are indeed very very lucky to have gotten away from this horrible, abusive, mentally ill and uneducated person.

    Healthy, compassionate and empathetic parents do not kick their children when they are down nor do they make it all about THEM.

    What an asshole. Why your mother continues to stand by this horrible person defies all logic. I can only assume she is too battered and abused to leave. At this point she is only a shell of a being. It's a shame there are still siblings at home.

    No surprise Darth has not responded. He can't win us over so he won't even try. He'll proclaim us unworthy, ungodly, evil so he won't have to engage.

    Chickenshit. Baak Baaak.

  26. Not that I am defending this father, who is obviously a jerk, but I do think it is beneath an educated person to make personal attacks about somebody's spelling, etc. in what was a very informal medium (email).

    How he spells words and the punctuation he uses doesn't make the content of his comments any more or less compelling/logical. (They fail at that enough on their own.) It just makes the person mentioning the spelling errors, and drawing conclusions about intelligence based on them, look petty.

  27. What it does do is make him more human and less godlike and any chance to knock him off his high horse is an opportunity to remind him he is not god. Not even close. God would use spell check.

  28. Oh yeah, I forgot about the letter from your formerly intended. Oh my, that WAS a rant he sent you, wasn't it?

    Dear Ruth, the men you've had in your life have taken this authority thing to the highest degree possible. When you have had that, it's hard to be attracted to a man who isn't going to do that to you. There is something very 'safe' about that personality type for you because you already know it and know what to expect. I suspect that while Harris was a good man, you saw some of this in him, which was both comforting and scary at the same time.

    It also absolves you a bit from making your own way, taking your own steps and making your own mistakes. The idea of making mistakes, is a scary thing, but you will get the hang of it because you'll do it a lot for awhile....and then you'll learn how to avoid them.

    It would have been nice if you had been given the freedom to make these mistakes while still living at home, with your parents a solid safety net, but they didn't allow it and now you have to muddle through. That's not really your fault, but it is your reality.

    Just because it is your reality, doesn't mean it's a sign for you to throw in the towel. Don't. Keep going forward....always forward. Rest a bit along the way when you need to, but never ever go back to where you were the least happy. You may be frustrated and discouraged now, but I don't think it's anything compared to what you were living before, right?

  29. @ Anonymous - I don't normally criticize people's spelling or grammar, but in this case we have writing samples from Mr. X and from the young man he'd chosen to marry Ruth. Both of them exhibit similar weaknesses in spelling and grammar, as well as the clarity and organization of their ideas. Granted, that's not a huge sample size, but I think it does deserve comment here, especially since Mr. X is offering to sponsor Ruth in a college of their church family's choosing.

    If this really is typical of the ATI/QF/etc. education, I wouldn't trust them to pick out a college. It's not that I think they'd be malicious about it, necessarily; I just don't see any indication that they're qualified to evaluate places of learning.

  30. May I speak to Ruth's father for a moment? I wish to do so as respectfully as I am able. Sir, the word of God instructs husbands to lay down their lives for their wives. It also commands fathers not to exasperate their children. Furthermore, we are to spend our time looking at the planks in our own eyes before looking for splinters in another's. These are the verses you can meditate on if you want to please God through your actions. The reason why the father's role is so significant in a child's life is that it impacts how that child will see God. Yes...God, the self-sacrificial, willing to lay down His own life, willing to take our sins upon Himself, loving God. The God who encompasses all the qualities of love in 1 Corinthians 13: He is patient, kind, not self seeking, not easily angered, and He keeps no record of wrongs. These are the characteristics that make a man a father.

    Personally, I am incredibly proud of Ruth. I wish you loved her as we do. If you had only the smallest amount of compassion for your daughter, if only a grain of kindness in your words to her, then perhaps there would be a chance of reconciliaiton. It would begin with God piercing your heart with His love, and your repentance for the heartless and selfish way you controlled your family. As it stands today, I am recommending to Ruth that she break all contact with you until you are showing the fruit of repentance in your life. If you are not approaching her with eyes full of tears, humbly asking for her forgiveness, then there is no reason for her to have further contact with you. It only damages her heart.

    A Concerned Friend

  31. @Michael Mock and anyone else who may be interested


    I am not Ruth's Dad (or in any way personally connected with Ruth--I actually just stumbled upon this blog today, so please excuse my ignorance of context), but I was raised in a family that was deeply impacted by Bill Gothard's teachings. Some here have asked for reasoning behind why Quiverfull families would live the way they do, and while I definitely do not currently subscribe to these teachings, I think that my experiences and those of my family may shed some light.

    Context: I'm just going to start by saying that my family isn't necessarily a typical example of anything; I think that my comments based on the experiences of my friends may actually be more helpful in evaluating the mindset of a "typical" Quiverfull family. However, my family is what I know best, so I'm going to talk about them as well.

    Warning: In an effort to give you an idea of where I'm coming from, I'm going to talk a lot about my background. If you're not really that interested (totally ok), just scroll to the next post (it got really long...sorry), and I'll put a summary paragraph at the top).

    Well. The start of most stories seems to be "he/she/it was born". Mine actually starts a couple of years before, when my dad's vasectomy was reversed because my parents were convicted by the teachings of Bill Gothard. My parents had two biological children, both of which were born <5 years after their marriage. At some point after these two were born, my dad had a vasectomy, and when the oldest bio kid was eight, adopted six kids (long story).

    They had both been raised in conservative churches; my mom had been extremely sheltered growing up (as in, she was a teen in the sixties and didn't know who the Beatles were until years afterward). Mom has a rather dominant personality, and Dad is really quiet, so Mom sort of pushed the family into a more conservative lifestyle. They didn't really run into Gothard's teachings until the early to mid eighties--I was born in '91--but it fit what they believed pretty well, so they really took to it. Mom and Dad homeschooled all the older kids for at least couple of years with the ATI curriculum.

    My parents loosened up over the years--it probably helped that they were in their forties when my younger brother and I were born--and while little brother and I were homeschooled until I started junior high, we weren't terribly out of the norm for homeschoolers. Sure, I may not have had as colorful a vocabulary as some kids my age,and we have the requisite family pictures in which the kids are wearing homemade matching outfits, but we were still allowed to watch typical kids cartoons on TV, I wore jeans, shorts, and skirts above the knee as a kid, and my little brother and I even took martial arts for a while. We were basically normal conservative kids.

    When I was in fifth grade, however, my mom found out that my dad is bi. My parents really wanted to salvage the marriage and sought marital counseling from the pastor of an independent, fundamentalist Baptist church, where we ended up attending until we moved to Alaska. To give a measure of the "fundyness" of this church, most of the graduates of which attended Hyles-Anderson and Golden State Baptist College. (The pastor's daughter had attended Bob Jones, which was generally considered slightly liberal. She actually married Mark Rogers while we were attending the church, if anyone here knows who that is. Nice people.) My little brother and I ended up going to the little Christian school at the church, which was a nightmare (though mostly for the reasons that junior high is a nightmare for most people). After a couple of years, my dad got a job in Alaska, we moved there, and we became progressively less conservative.


  32. (continuation)

    SUMMARY (as promised): My parents embraced the Quiverfull philosophy rather late in life; as a result, they managed to pop out only two more kids before menopause hit and canceled any further plans they may have had. They were into the ATI scene for ~10 years, and our family attended a very fundy Baptist church for several years, where we behaved in such a way that we fit in. (I know little bro and I thought it was legit for most of our stay there, and while I started coming off of it when I realized they would not be cool with Lord of the Rings, my little brother questioned my use of "whorescara" for /years/ after I started wearing makeup. He also believed that using hair gel would make him go bald. Oh, Timmy...)

    Currently, I'm a senior Chemistry major applying to grad schools to get my PhD in Biochemistry. I've been living on my own for the past two years, I wear pants, shorts, and skirts above the knee (=D), and while I value my parents' input, I do not feel a compulsion to follow their orders to the letter. I am a Christian, and I'm a sucker for Adele, Fairport Convention, and Mika. I can't hate on Bill Gothard too much (he is, after all, directly responsible for my existence), but I certainly do not agree with all of his teachings.

    So, back to the original question: Why do the saner Quiverfull/fundamentalists live the way they do?

    (The people that are legit crazy don't count--crazy be crazy, and their personal pathology is going to determine the choices they make)

    Answer: Because this is the way to live which best conforms to their moral code. You're dealing with people that think that the Bible is literally, absolutely true and whose lifestyles are determined by their interpretation of the Bible. Most of the people I met had been raised in very conservative homes (culturally speaking), and they have a lot of difficulty in interpreting the Bible in a way other than which they had been taught. People that were not raised this way, tend to come into it wanting something more real, more true than their previous lives; they find this by going back to the basics of their faith and living a more conservative lifestyle. I would actually consider this analogous to, say, individuals that live strict vegan lifestyles on philosophical grounds.

    Ruth: I'm so sorry you're having such an awful time right now. You'll definitely be in my prayers. Life really sucks sometimes--but it gets better. And just because things are rough, it doesn't mean that God hates you. (It rains on the just and the unjust, neh?) DON'T feel that you need to walk back into an abusive situation. You can make it.

    Also, echoing the sentiments of previous commenters, I would seriously recommend reading up on Narcissistic Personality Disorder to see if you think your dad might have this disorder. This is a really good site, and worth checking out:
    I've had some personal experience with these individuals, and becoming informed (even just knowing that it's not you!) is incredibly empowering.

    Best of luck.

  33. @ Anonymous - Thanks for posting that. Very interesting look at the QF movement.

  34. It sure is hard to take Ruth's father seriously when his spelling and grammar are so atrocious. He doesn't seem particularly intelligent to me; his lack of intelligence is also evidenced by the fact that every opinion he gives seems to be the ATI company line - or should I say propaganda?

  35. I pray for all be they of any race or creed for the love of THE LORD OUR GOD sees us for who we are and what we value over all. Through HIM is is I who ask for the blessings and courage to face this in the NAME OF THE FATHER.
    To Deana. You do not know your Bible as well as you profess because if you did the holiest of commandments would stick out to you and show you that "RUTH" is dishonoring one of God's most holy. Inscribed by GOD himself and asked as the first promise is HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER. Important to the point of repetition in Ephesians. This is a trust of faith to honor them in all times in disagrement and agreements. RUTH will not be whole until she can get back to the basic trust in GODS WORD. We love our daughter so loving parents have expectations she has not met as GOD loves us with expectations.

    To Michael Mock. The way I live was set before me by the HOLIEST OF HOLIES. GOD requires it for them that will enjoy eternity in HIS precense. My life is good. What life do you have without trust in HIM? I have followed a program of faith to be debtless this makes me happy. My spirit is replenished by the walk I have with my Savior. I have a holy, GOD fearing wife sanctioned by the covenants of the Bible who has walked with me for most of my life. We know no divorce because we believe in the covenant of marriage therefore I am fulfilled and happy. Our children living in our honor are happy. The very small sadness we feel is about "Ruth" and our son who chose this life of worldiness and they were raised in the same way as the kids who stayed and returned to us whole so we keep praying that they too will return to live God's promise.

    Quiverful isn't a lifestyle for those who pray upon the scripture which is why it will never be for everyone. Choosing to allow God to be in control of the opening and closing of the womb is a calling that you respond to with right spirit and heart or one that you ignore because of your own desires and needs which don't coincide with the Bible. We don't judge others for not having the faith to walk in the LORDS TRUST but we pray for them to find the strength to open themselves and give it to GOD. Speaking man to man you should try it and watch how your life opens.

    Man and woman were created different for HIS PURPOSES and you fight still to be equals in yolk. Purpose to find HIS PURPOSE.

  36. Dad: What's "equal in yolk?" Is that a Gothard term? I'm asking this question seriously because I can't tell if it's a typo.

  37. In 2 Corinthians, it says that couples should be equally yoked (like oxen are yoked). I believe that's what he is referring to.
    "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?"
    However, I'm not sure why he used that phrase in the context he did. There was a time, about a decade ago, when it was an over-used expression in ATI circles. They used it to discuss all sorts of scenarios in which people could be incompatible. I think he's trying to say that men and women aren't the same and trying to be the same is incompatible with a Biblical worldview. I don't know.

  38. is all about YOU, isn't it, GothardDad?

    ""RUTH" is dishonoring one of God's most holy. Inscribed by GOD himself and asked as the first promise is HONOR THY FATHER AND MOTHER."

    So what does this look your GODLY household?

  39. Thank you very much, Ruth. It didn't quite SOUND like a typo to me so I'm glad to get some explanation.

    Of course men and women aren't the same, but we are equal. Neither gender is higher than the other in nature, but our differences compliment each other, or should. I can see where the yoking term makes sense in 2 Corinthians. Though perhaps not so much in its usage above.

    Also, I'm not sure what your thoughts are on returning home, but whatver choice you make, make it carefully. I and everyone else here would hate for you to be oppressed again or harmed in any way.

  40. Ruth, I'm not from this world, and to me from my mainstream Christian persective, your dad sounds like a nutcase. His words have all the ring of a cult, which I had an experience with during my youth. Your dad definitely wants control over you, does not respect you as an adult, nor does he see you capable of thinking for yourself. I see no indication from these words that he loves you unconditionally, as Christ or a healthy dad would. All he seems to want is to control your every move, as his possession. From his words it's about him and his ego more than it is about you. It must have been humiliating to him when you left.

    Trying to get through college is a struggle for most people and lots of people are having problems in the current economy. Struggling in your 20s to find out who you are and experiencing financial stuggles, is also common and not a sign that something is wrong with you. I think that you are right to not delve right into marriage. Security I've found is not the best reason to marry. And there are Christian women who are single, make a decent living, are happy with good lives. That is possible. What I do know from experience is that there is nothing more miserable and anxiety inducing than handing control over your life to someone else. Hang in there, and know that many of us hold you in our prayers.
    -- Kim

  41. Hey, Gotharddad, Ruth has been gracious enough to let you have your say time and time again. Each time, you manage to portray yourself as an even bigger nutbar than the last. You think you're convincing anybody at all? Think again.

    Oh, and nip out to your local adult ed program and take a remedial writing class.

  42. Ruth, I don't have time right now to read through all the previous comments, so apologize if someone else has already said this...
    I strongly believe God does not punish us. He is grace and Love. Do our own actions and those around us cause life to stink sometimes? Of course. But for your father to come on here and say you are experiencing hardship because you have not followed his plan for hour life, is really sad.
    "Daddy," Ruth is in this position largely because of YOU, not because of some character flaw in herself. It's due to the isolated, tightly controlled and indoctrinated upbringing which you forced upon her. She received no head start in the "real world", thanks to you. Give it up... others, even (gasp) single women can be lead by God. And not everyone's divinely inspired path is the one you have chosen.
    Ruth, you are amazingly couragous and strong. Hang in there. Life *will* get better. As awful as financial difficulties are, at least you are free to be yourself.

  43. your dad is terrible at spelling and gramar and can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're".


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