Apparently, this writer got an interview with Bill Gothard. I'm a little shocked because, from what I'd heard, Gothard hasn't been speaking to many reporters lately. Because I'm quoted in the article, I'm sure the floodgates will open on anonymous commenters. As a warning, I just wanted to let everyone know that I may have to go back to IDed comments if it gets too nasty.
I like the article. However, I know it will be dismissed out-of-hand by the very people who need to read it most. That's unfortunate. Also unfortunate, ATI and IBLP are, according to recent estimates, raking in almost $100Million dollars a year. One-hundred million dollars annually from some of the poorest people in our country. What people in the mainstream media need to show is that the Duggars are such an anomaly within ATI/QF! I would say 95% of ATI families have no where near the financial security that the Duggars have. If it weren't for TLC, the Duggars wouldn't be where they are...and not every family can have a reality show. Look at the Bates- before TLC, and even with some TLC help, they're still relying on their son to help with the bills. But, Gothard gets his cut off that family- oh, you can bet he does! That $100M came from somewhere. In my own family, some of us went without medical care just to be able to afford that Big Sandy camping trip or the Chicago seminars. Excuse my mini-rant, but Bill Gothard has a company raking in $100 Million dollars and I have a pregnant sister with an ATI education, who conceived at an ATI event, who can't provide for herself. Something's wrong with that picture.
Are you sure you linked to the correct article? The one you linked to came out a little more than a year ago, in response to the controversy surrounding the "Taliban Dan” political ad aired in the fall of 2010 by an opponent of then-candidate, now-Congressman Daniel Webster (R-Florida).
ReplyDeleteThat does seem to be an article from last year, it was interesting though. I am curious though...you mentioned doing without so your family could attend the Big Sandy trip and other seminars. Do you know if the fees for those are a flat amount per family or does it vary depending on how many events or classes or whatever the families participate in?
ReplyDeleteThe public is never going to know the truth about Bill Gothard, ATI/IBLP, Quiverfull, the Duggars, etc., until the media is able to couch that truth in a story even more compelling than a family with nineteen kids. It doesn't matter how many times the anti-fundamentalist crowd emails Anderson Coopers the evidence he needs to tear open the Duggars and the entire Bill Gothard empire--neither he nor any other journalist will touch this issue until and unless they have irrefutable proof that Gothardism is truly the dangerous, misogynistic cult most people here believe it to be.
ReplyDeleteThe religious right already believes that the mainstream media harbors an innate anti-Christian bias; therefore, no journalist or media outlet wants to be accused of airing an unprovoked attack on a Christian leader, a Christian institution, Christian families, or a gaggle of beloved Christian icons. Even a liberal network like MSNBC won't touch the story because they don't want to provide more ammunition to the likes of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh.
If the issue at hand were a Muslim sect, there might be some hope of compelling the media to ask intellectually honest questions, but the media is well aware of how the deck is stacked--according to some polls, more than three quarters of Americans identify themselves as Christian. Until there is a smoking gun, the media will continue to be complacent, Bill Gothard and the Duggars will continue to make money hand over fist, and a few pissed off anti-fundamentalists will futilely stalk the net, looking for any opportunity make snarky comments and post links to incriminating evidence (http://the-duggar-cult.angelfire.com/).
I disagree.
DeleteThere has been a certain amount of press on the likes of Mike and Debi Pearl, Hephizah House, Chuck Phelps in connection with Tina Anderson and the fact that he was on the board at Bob Jones University after deliberately blaming Tina Anderson for what her rapist did to her and after a court of law found her rapist to be guilty.
And, in that vein, there has been PLENTY of scrutiny as well for polygamist families directly in connection with Warren Jeffs, (Who sits in jail) and books written by women who were in those polygamist families as wives, such as Stolen Innocence by Elissa Wall and Escape by Carolyn Jessop. There is also Lost Boy by Brent W. Jeffs.
So, I really don't think that the press is staying away as much as you think they are.
Perhaps, you ought to think about writing a book....
DeleteOr, perhaps you and your sister ought to think about writing it between the two of you....
DeleteIt would sell and you could use the support.
If the Duggars are caught abusing their children (as the Pearls' book purportedly encourages) or forcing their underage daughters into marriages with older men (as Warren Jeffs' cult apparently did), they will definitely come under scrutiny because that would be a SMOKING GUN. But the media is not simply going to attack their BELIEFS, no matter how screwed up those beliefs may be.
DeleteThe media isn't going to go after the Duggars or the Bates or Bill Gothard for suggesting that women shouldn't attend college or work outside the home or for promoting arranged marriages between consenting adults. The mainstream media would prefer to maintain an "if it works for them" attitude and continue to portray the Duggars and the Bates and the rest of the Gothardite loons as simply old-fashioned.
So, if the Duggars and the Bates' aren't outright abusing anyone like you say, then what is YOUR problem with the media having a "live and let live" creedo?
DeleteI don't think the same is necessarily true for Gothard. It's only a matter of time, I think, with him.
Let me redefine that, I sounded like you said they are abusing their families when you didn't say that. My bad.
DeleteThe problem is that TLC and the media deliberately gloss over those of the Duggars' beliefs that most Americans would find abhorrent. This has led many Americans to idealize the Duggars as a large Christian family who knows "how to make it work." Michelle and Jim Bob are featured on daytime talk shows, asked to speak at national conferences, and even used as campaign surrogates for a leading presidential candidate. All of this perpetuates the belief that the Duggars, their parenting style, their system of homeschooling, and ultimately their values are something to emulate. The Duggars are generating money and recruiting followers for an abusive, misogynistic cult--THAT is my problem with them, and it should be a problem for anyone who opposes Bill Gothard and his twisted teachings.
DeleteAnonymous nailed it March 9 at 2:43.
DeleteBravo, well said.
ReplyDeleteI've never been ATI, and I have no personal grudge against Bill Gothard. I don't even know that much about him. But a couple of different times in the 80's and 90's, I encountered Gothard followers at churches I attended while stationed overseas.
ReplyDeleteIt was very unsettling. They all acted as if, when Bill Gothard spoke on a subject, that was the final word. Even appeals to Scripture were powerless against the word of Bill Gothard. Gothard didn't approve of music with a discernable beat, so music with a beat was off limits. (Never mind all those Psalms about praising God with tambourines and resounding cybmals.) Bill Gothard didn't approve of mortgages, so buying a house on credit was ungodly. You were supposed to rent a place while saving up to pay cash for a house. (Spend a couple of decades paying the landlord's mortgage instead of my own? What's wrong with THAT picture?)
My heart goes out to you and Rachel, children trying to make sense of that kind of muddled (dare I say anti-Biblical?) thinking every day of your young lives.
Philosophies designed to keep the masses poor and dependent.
DeleteFunny thing is, the people who gave me the mortgage advice were an Air Force officer and his wife. They were very dedicated to the pursuit of financial success. It's just that, where Gothard's teachings were concerned, they abandoned all critical thinking skills. "What if you had a mortgage, and your husband died? What would happen to you then? You wouldn't have a place to live any more." Um, what would happen if I were renting, and my husband died? At least with a house, I'd have some equity. And there is such a thing as life insurance...
DeleteWell, and why didn't they counsel people instead of avoiding a mortgage, to get mortgage insurance which would pay the mortgage if either of the spouses died or were disabled to a point of where they could no longer work?
DeleteSeems a no brainier to me.
Oh...and we're retired Air Force. It would make sense for a military family to NOT have a mortgage, since they likely move every three years, have their housing paid for and CAN actually save up to pay cash on a house when they retire.
DeleteSeems the playing fields are a bit different for them.
The conversation was about buying a house after retirement.
DeleteThese weren't stupid people, but it was kind of scary the way they let Gothard have the final word, even when his statements flew in the face of both logic and Scripture. I just can't imagine what my childhood would have been like if my parents had been like that. That's why it's fascinating to watch as Ruth and Rachel struggle to overcome the negative parts of their upbringing. I wish them both all the best.
I've seen something similar in talking to the parents of a friend of mine. Most topics, they're bright, inquisitive, perceptive people. But when anything to do with religion... it was as if, when you said certain key words, their brains switched off. It was downright spooky.
DeleteAnd, I suppose I should add, it was also completely atypical of people with religious beliefs, at least in my experience. Most of the believers I've known, including some that were/are very devout, do NOT check their brains at the door.
It is disgraceful. Disgraceful! It angers me that a parent, would allow their child to go without medical care to put money into Bill Gothard's pocket.
ReplyDeleteI am not a religious person, but every religious person I know well, believes that the well being of people, comes before greed. If Bill Gothard truly cared about his followers, he would implement programs which would provide support to his followers. Instead he tries to keep them poor and ignorant so that there is no escape. Of COURSE your sister cannot take care of herself with her ATI education, because then she might question the All Mighty Gothard. Disgraceful.
Thanks for sharing that article. Definitely flash backs from my upbringing. Gothard is a CULT leader. Puts words in Gods mouth that God never said.
ReplyDeleteI might get pilloried for saying this but in the interest of fairness, I am unaware of any credible allegations ever being made that Bill Gothard has siphoned money from his organization for his personal benefit. His organization is audited annually by an independent accounting firm charged with opining whether or not any financial malfeasance has taken place. Gothard has no personal trappings of wealth which argues against the idea that he is fleecing his flock for his own benefit. I'm unaware of any former IBLP insiders who have ever alleged financial impropriety on the part of Gothard. I'd be interested in seeing any contradictory evidence. Could it be that no credible news organization has "blown the cover off Gothard's scam" because, after investigating, they have concluded that there is no scam?
ReplyDeleteI understand that some people disagree with his teachings. However, it seems hugely unfair to the man to make unfounded allegations concerning his financial propriety simply because of those teachings. Gothard may have a number of faults, but I don't think greed is one of them.
I am truly sympathetic to Ruth's plight and the pain caused by the actions of her father. However, I would challenge anyone to cite any of Gothard's published teachings which could be reasonably construed as endorsing Ruth's father's behavior with regard to Ruth and Rachel. It just doesn't seem fair to attribute the actions of an unloving, maniachial, control freak to Gothard merely because he purports to be a Gothard adherent.
Who said anything about a scam? Yours is the first post in this thread to use to the word "scam." And FYI, putting something in quotation marks suggests a direct quote--nobody here has questioned why the media hasn't "blown the cover off of Gothard's scam."
DeleteThe question at issue is why the media doesn't expose the Duggars' Gothard-based beliefs for the radical, dangerous, misogynistic lunacy they actually are. The media clearly doesn't shy away from covering the Duggars, but the media definitely shies away from any probing questions about what prompts the Duggars to act the way they act and do the things they do.
When reporters simply repeat the Duggars' sanitized, TLC-approved answer about wanting an endless stream of children because "children are a gift from God" (note the appropriate use of quotation marks), that frustrates those of us who don't like seeing people who view young girls as indentured servants and grown women as chattel/breeding stock portrayed as role models.
I think you're right about the quotation marks. My bad. I inferred that the accusation against Gothard was that he improperly benefits financially from his devotees. It sounds like that was not your take on this post and the accompanying comments. So, other than my misuse of quotation marks, did you disagree with anything else in my comment regarding the greed accusation against Gothard?
DeleteWith regard to your comment about the media exposing "the Duggars' Gothard-based beliefs for the radical, dangerous, misogynistic lunacy they actually are" (see, I'm figuring out how these quotation marks work), this seems like a conclusion that assumes that the reader knows the evidence that you are relying on to reach that conclusion. I don't. What is your specific evidence from Gothard's published teachings that lead you to make such a statement? I know that he teaches that a person should forgive offenders, and, likewise, seek forgiveness from those they've offended. I know that he teaches that to love a person means sacrificing your rights for that other person's needs. He teaches that a true Christ follower needs to let their good works be such an example that unbelievers would be drawn to God. I've not seen anything that encourages hatred of women. He certainly teaches that married couples should refrain from using birth control and that the husband should be the leader of his household. This can't be what you mean since the Catholic church teaches the same thing and few would consider Catholicism a cult. I've certainly never read anything that Gothard has written advocating treating "young girls as indentured servants" (I'm really getting the hang of those quotation marks). Fairness dictates that you support your accusation with some evidence. I'm not talking about anecdotal evidence of how some misguided Gothardites treat their daughters. Rather, you need to pinpoint exactly where Gothard himself advocated anything close to what you are accusing him of.
I don't know much about the Duggars other than they have a reality show where cameras follow their family 24/7. You imply a media conspiracy to whitewash and conceal the "truth" (oops I may have fallen off your proper use of quotation marks wagon) about the Duggars. That doesn't sound like the media to me. Usually, they're hungry for any dirt and controversey. They're usually very quick to publicize even a hint of embarassing or shocking behavior or beliefs. Could it be that the media is simply not finding the "lunacy" you reference.
I get that you don't seem to agree with Gothard's teachings. I don't agree with many of them either. However, it doesn't seem right, fair or tolerant to slander a man by attributing to him beliefs that he doesn't hold merely because you disagree with him.
Nobody suggested a conspiracy (aka collusion), and nobody said that Gothard's motivation is greed. Like most Gothardites, you're as adept at putting words into the mouths of others as you are at ignoring the misogyny, noncontextual use of Biblical text, and overall danger inherent in Bill Gothard's teachings.
DeleteYears spent in the political arena taught me two things: First, it's the people with the craziest beliefs (i.e., 9/11 was an inside job; the white race is genetically superior to all others; an unmarried woman should, as an adult, remain under the authority and supervision of her father until her father approves a husband for her; etc.) who spend the most time practicing to defend those beliefs. Second, you can argue with ignorance, but you can't argue with insanity.
Anyone who genuinely wants to know the truth about Bill Gothard's teachings and why I and so many others vehemently oppose those teachings should have no problem finding it: http://the-duggar-cult.angelfire.com/
Anyone who is looking for a debate can look elsewhere--I have better things to do than spend my time preparing an annotated essay for a brainwashed cultist who could watch a video of Bill Gothard simultaneously raping a nun and murdering an infant and still find some way to defend the man.
Did you, Anon. 3/9 04:49, read the article that Ruth linked to? I did. I also read the comments. There were many voices, both in the article and in the comments, that agreed wholeheartedly with what the writer uncovered about the teachings of Gothard (some of which is verbal and can be found only at the seminars). Things like the umbrella of protection. The husband being a hammer, the wife a chisel, and the children the diamonds. Grace not being unmerited favor but the strength to follow God's commandments (not the orthodox view by any means). As much as Gothard tried to explain or backtrack, he did a very poor job of it, or tried to deflect the discussion.
DeleteAnecdotal evidence (and there is more of this every passing day) shows us that Gothard's teachings give a "biblical" green light for such abuses as in the case of Ruth and Rachel (and of Lewis over in Commandments of Men and of the many survivors at Recovering Grace) to occur.
I'm not a Gothardite. I've never been one. But I know all about cherry-picking scriptures to make them say whatever you want. The Independent Fundamental Baptists do it all the time and I was one of them. When reading or studying the Bible, context is everything but -- from everything I've seen and read -- it is something Gothard blatantly ignores in order to make his points.
Oh, and in response to this:
Delete"He certainly teaches that married couples should refrain from using birth control and that the husband should be the leader of his household. This can't be what you mean since the Catholic church teaches the same thing and few would consider Catholicism a cult."
Plenty of Christians call Catholicism a cult -- Independent Fundamental Baptists and Southern Baptists among them. Not because of the reasons you state, but because -- when the Pope is speaking <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility><i>ex cathedra</i></i>, his words are given the same weight as Scripture itself. Catholics are to follow them as if they were given by God Himself.
The parallels are interesting. In the Catholic church, an unmarried, childless man's words are considered as important as the Bible. In ATI, an unmarried, childless man's words are treated just the same.
Not because of the reasons you state, but because -- when the Pope is speaking ex cathedra, his words are given the same weight as Scripture itself. Catholics are to follow them as if they were given by God Himself.
DeleteI'm having trouble with the preview, or I would have seen the improper HTML tags. My apologies.
Legal does not necessarily = moral or ethical. Just because he in't breaking the law doesn't mean he's not doing something wrong.
DeleteGothardism reminds me a lot of mormonism (mainstream and fundamental LDS), which I currently feel trapped in. We have the following similarities:
1) patriarchal (although not to the extent Ruth describes)
2) required to accept the words of prophets and leaders as absolute truth and authority
3) salvation by works, although they claim it's by grace
4) huge emphasis on tithing
5) legalistic lists of do's and don'ts
6) and many more!
I cannot believe IBLP is raking in that much money! My family was one of those that did without but managed to pay the fee each year to stay in the organization. We drove the crappiest cars imaginable that needed fixing constantly and occasionally left us stranded on the side of the road because my parents wouldn't get a car loan. We (7 kids and 2 parents) lived in a bus fitted with bunk beds and a tiny kitchen so my parents could build a home for 6 months to avoid a mortgage. It is crazy now that I look back at everything they did because they were following Bill Gothard's teachings
ReplyDeleteRuth, can you explain the story behind this article? It looks like it was published well over a year ago. Why are you concerned about it generating a lot of anonymous comments now?
ReplyDelete