I don't know what's in the water today but I've received this question a hundred times in e-mail.
(paraphrased and summed up)"Are the Duggars QF? Why would they deny it if they are?"
The Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar family are absolutely, positively, 100% QF and HAVE identified themselves as aligned with the goals and ideals of the main QF movement. I've not met them personally, given. But I don't have to stand in the presense of George Bush to tell you he is a republican, either. Here's how I know that the Duggar family is QF. Forget that their books are on the QF website- that's not the half of it.
1. They speak at ATI conferences. The only people allowed to speak at ATI conferences are those who Brother Gothard, or one of his employees, has cleared as sticking to the party line. The party line is quiverfull.
2. This article is on the QF site. It's from 2001. Further, a version of this article was mailed, by the organization, to every QF voting family in Arkansas. Ask yourself why the QF organization would mail out a prospectus on a candidate that wasn't QF? They wouldn't.
3. Prior to the show, they claimed QF in local newspaper pieces done about them.
4. Prior to the show, Michelle posted on QF forums. Since the first discovery show, her posts have been exponged.
Why they'd deny it?
I think they'd be more likely to deny it now because they can afford to. They're no longer dependent on seminars and QF/ATI speaking engagements for their livelihood. They've got the show and with the show comes the freedom to do things their way. Jim Bob isn't stupid - he's very media savvy and he knows when to disengage from a system that's being scrutinized in the public eye. Gothardism and ATI and QF are starting to get picked apart by people from within and without. It behooves QF to attach themselves to the Duggars because the Duggars are "modest modern" and in the public eye. It behooves the Duggars to disassociate because people like myself and nolongerquivering are outing the system for what it is.
Many QF families don't realize that you don't have to call yourself Quiverfull to be such. QF families eschew family planning and keep an open womb. It's based on Ps. 127.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be very popular in quivering circles to say things like, "Well, sure I believe in wifely submission and allowing God to plan my family- but I'm not part of some movement! How silly are you?"
ReplyDeleteYou know...I lived in Mr. Duggar's district when he was running for national office. I did not vote for him. Not only did I not care for his politics, I had serious issues with someone who would blow $100,000.00 of his own money chasing power when his family of 13 and counting desperately needed appropriate housing. My parents are hard core Foxnews watching, Rush is Right, Republicans and they didn't vote for him because they viewed him as not taking proper care of his family.
ReplyDeleteI can only think that he's slowly distancing himself from the Quiverfull movement because he is thinking about taking another run for national office. And I will be campaigning for whomever has the best chance of beating him.
I will second what Hillary at Quivering Daughters said. I didn't hear the term "quiverful" until about a year ago. I didn't know any other families who were like us until I was in my teens and didn't know there was a name for that type of family. My parents would not call themselves "quiverful", but all the same damaging practices that I'm reading about in other quiverful families went on in mine. At least we weren't ATI. In the hands of a controlling person like my father, that would have the ultimate nightmare. When I read your story, I keep thinking to myself, "Oh, my gosh, my childhood could have been much worse." I feel for you and any other girls who had to grow up under Bill Gothard's teachings! I felt very inferior as a female growing up, but oh my gosh, it could have been much much worse!
ReplyDeleteI've had two QF encounters of late that were interesting. I had lunch with a friend whom I admire. He home schooled his one child. His wife is a teacher. While he is not a stated QF, he was shocked when I asked him about his ATI curriculum. He said he was surprised that I (an outsider, a nice person, but a heathen) knew anything about ATI. I told him I was a good reader and there was a lot about ATI out there.
ReplyDeleteThe funny thing is that he almost seemed...embarrassed to be associated with it. He fluttered a bit about how it's a certified program and gives standards, but he seemed to think I was making judgments about the value of the program. His daughter, however, is hardcore ATI. She's marrying a guy who is one of 12 siblings and seemed to have had her fill of the kool-aid, to a point that seemed extreme to her own father.
I'm thinking ATI has a shelf life for one generation before the next generation runs for the hills.
I overheard a coworker dissing the Duggars as following a cult and breeding more kids than they could send to college. I pointed her to some websites to explain that these people aren't educating their kids to state standards, and college is a fearful hell that their kids will never experience.
It was interesting as she's a fundamentalist but she feels these groups are pushing acceptable boundaries.
We have been praying for you, Miss Ruth. People change...and they change there beliefs... an they change who they associate with...they change there goals...and so you know who are we to say if the Duggars were once QF and changed. I know the Duggars very, very, very good. You might say were like a family. They know about you. Please recconsider this post...they are having problems with Miss Josie...they don't need this. Make a public apology to them please, Miss Ruth. This might be read as slander and TLC will portect them.
ReplyDeleteI wonder which of the older Duggar girls runs for the hills at the first sign of freedom. I can't imagine having to be forced to be a teen-age mom/au pair to my "buddies" while Mom and Dad are acting like a pair of love-struck teen-agers. I mean, come on! They are stuck with the daily grunt-work (which there is plenty of), while Mom and Dad get all the glory.
ReplyDeleteSo many people on various internet sites look up to the Duggars as some sort of glorified "Leave it to Beaver" family, yet they have no clue what goes on behind closed doors. I don't know exactly what goes on, but I can make some assumptions based on what I've read here, on large family boards for many years, and with my own experience in raising a large family. It's not like the Duggars portray on TLC.
Donna
"Arkansasgirl", give us all a break. Ruth has not said anything that thousands of us don't already know. I used to post on several large family boards for years with women who knew all about the Duggar family and, in fact, posted with Michelle Duggar. There was NEVER any secret that they were Quiverfull. Now Ruth (or anyone else) is supposed to "apologize" for that? Are you serious?
ReplyDelete"Arkansasgirl", I used to post on several large family boards with women who were very well acquainted with Michelle Duggar (as she used to post there too). There was NEVER any secret that their family was QF. Now that they're large family "supastars" on TLC, they want that kept away from public knowledge because their association with QF and ATI is not good for their cash-cow$$ image? Is that what you're saying? Don't try to intimidate or fool the rest of us who know the truth.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing, Arkansasgirl, I guess TLC can add Google and Quiverfull.com to the "slander" list because the same exact article that Ruth has a link to is on the Google Search engine if you type in: "Are the Duggars Quiverfull". Voila - the article comes up right up - right at the Quiverfull site itself. Seems that if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck...it must be a duck. Look it up in your Wisdom booklets under "D" for duck.
ReplyDeleteI have to assume the "Wisdom" booklets care nothing about grammar and spelling, as demonstrated by Arkansasgirl. Nor, apparently, do they speak to vocabulary as slander is defined as:
ReplyDelete1.defamation; calumny: rumors full of slander.
2.a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report: a slander against his good name.
Neither of those descriptions fit Ruth's post. Sorry, but I'm sure Discovery has REAL fires which need extinguishing elsewhere.
Arkansasgirl,
ReplyDeleteS= spoken, slander. Just for future reference. Libel is written. And no, Ruth isn't guilty of either. You should probably warn the D family to stay away from Television without Pity. If you think what Ruth wrote was "slander" you'd probably faint from the stuff on that board.
Also, we can pray for Josie, but also pray that her parents find some wisdom and stop having babies. That child is struggling for life because her parents made bad decisions. The decision to play god with genetics and old eggs is always going to be a sad one.
I feel more sorry for the older J girls who no doubt can look forward to raising siblings with serious health problems. If you are going to bred them, then raise them. Don't ask your children to raise your other children.
And while we're at, teach the younger children some manners. Standing on tables that contain your meal and running around like howler monkeys is NOT a good presentation of godly behavior.
who are we to say if the Duggars were once QF and changed. I know the Duggars very, very, very good. You might say were like a family. They know about you. Please recconsider this post...they are having problems with Miss Josie
ReplyDelete...and you expect us to believe they just had baby #19 in the first place because they've abandoned the Quiverfull philosophy?
Is it bad of me to want to correct the grammar in "Arkansasgirl"'s post? there/their...good/well... *sigh*...mistakes I'd expect from a 3rd grader.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I agree with others, Ruth has written nothing that constitutes libel. You want to hear slander? Just turn the TV or radio on during election season.
"They know about you." What, the Duggars are Santa Claus now? They know if you've been bad or good, when you're sleeping and when you're awake?
ReplyDeleteRuth, don't worry. There is absolutely nothing *libelous* (you beat me to it Cynthia) about your post. Anon clearly doesn't know the standards for such a claim, which are particularly stringent because the Duggars in public figures.
ReplyDelete-an attorney with a degree in journalism
Loved your posts today. Thanks for continuing to be open and share your story with us.
What's funny is when I heard about QF, then the Duggars and then... who else, the Jeubs?
ReplyDeleteWell anyway, all these people who are all "We're not Quiverfull, we just leave it up to god to plan our family"?
The first thing I think of, ironically enough, is that old chestnut: "I'm not a feminist, but of course I believe in equality."
I KNOW, I KNOW! Comparing uberpatriarchy to feminism, the earth just might crack from the sheer ludicrousness. :D
But the big difference of course, is the latter misunderstands the meaning of feminism (it is NOT all about hating men and taking their jobs, thanks), and the former understands the meaning of Quiverfull perfectly, I just think like many do they're realizing how unpopular it's becoming.
Pretty transparent attempt to cover their asses, though. I mean, really.
Considering that most of what Ruth was asked has been all over magazines for the last few weeks, she need not work about big, bad TLC coming for her. Arkansasgirl needs to go back to the School of the DIning Room Table and revisit those Wisdom Booklets.... oh, wait a minute, if Arkansasgirl really wants to learn something, she needs to get her holier than thou self to a public school and actually get an education.
ReplyDeleteWhy do I keep thinking that in the very first TLC special, when the Duggars were introduced, that somewhere in that special it was said they were QF? Did I dream that up or did I read it somewhere?
ReplyDeleteI wish I'd had the foresight to take screen shots of the Michelle Duggar chats on CMOMB before she became a supah star. Ah well.
ReplyDeleteArkansasgirl, I suspect that if Michelle has time to worry about EZ Mart selling beer, and can find the time to go cry in front of the alcohol board about it when little Josie is in peril, that this blog would even be a blip on their screen. Now if it hurts the bottom line (i.e. TLC viewership)....well then that might just blip their screen.
*wouldn't even be a blip on their screen.* :P
ReplyDeleteAt the minimum it can be said that they hold the values espoused by the quiverful movement. Obviously they believe in actively attempting to have as many children as possible, which really is more about their will than God's anyway.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad to see that I wasn't the only one disgusted with Arkansasgirl's pathetic attempt at a comment. I'm sorry, but grammar is an essential component of sounding educated. Arkansasgril, my 2-year-old cousin has a better grasp of the English language than you do. If anyone needed any more evidence as to the substandard "teaching" of the School of the Dining Room Table, I give you Arkansasgirl. And I won't even go into the difference between "slander" and "libel" because it has already been so well explained. Arkansasgirl, if you're going to use a legal-sounding word, make sure you actually know the definition before you use it.
ReplyDeleteIt's no secret that the Duggars adhere to the QF movement. Anyone who stumbled upon their website or found Michelle's posts before TLC came knocking would have found nothing but QF posts, doctrine, and other dribble. To quote a previous poster "if it walks like a duck and looks like a duck", then the Duggar compound is full of quacking.
" If anyone needed any more evidence as to the substandard "teaching" of the School of the Dining Room Table, I give you Arkansasgirl."
ReplyDeleteAs according to BG, that is. Like I said in the previous post, I know many home schoolers that do an excellent job, who, as their children get older, bring in tutors for the subjects they don't feel competent in, nudge their children to go to college, and would not touch BG;s home school program or ATIA with a 10 foot pole. Of course these home schoolers also tend to get their children involved in ballet, sports, music, etc.
Sorry, that should be "BG's not "BG;s."
ReplyDeleteAs a home schooling mom of 13 years, I have to comment on the ATI curriculum. I was never supposed to see a Wisdom book, as I am not ATI. But a family who left ATI gave it to me. I thought maybe I could use it for religious instruction, because THERE WAS NO WAY THAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE WHOLE CURRICULUM!
ReplyDeleteAs an educator I was *shocked*!
Turns out is was crappy religious instruction too, so I in turn gave it away to the first person who acted interested. Wish I had thrown it away now, but it was such an expensive looking book, and I do love books...
All to say, it doesn't surprise me at all that Anonymous can't write effectively or logically grasp the issues.
I am also not surprised at the fear she is expressing on Ruth's behalf. Cults rule through fear. My guess is that Anonymous is truly (though needlessly) afraid and was hoping to save Ruth from getting into trouble out of kindness. The fear Anonymous expresses is no doubt very real to her as an oppressed child of a cult.
Very sad. All the more reason to keep blogging, Ruth, that Anonymous might one day find freedom too! =)
Oops, I was referring to Arkansasgirl, not Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteFunny that the National Enquire just printed a story about this with the Duggar's disclaimer. "We're not members of an abusive cult, we're Baptists!" Now, JimBob, what's the Bible say about lying?
ReplyDeleteShadowspring, are the same shadowspring from faith community network? If so, cool!
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ReplyDeleteThis is where you normally would say "well, the National Enquirer said it, it MUST be true". Except after the John Edwards thing, you have to wonder how much of the stuff in there is valid.
ReplyDeleteThe Duggars are doing their best to disassociate with the movement to be more mainstream. Look at the way the girls dress, make up, knee boots, name brand clothes.
One of my main issues with the family is their lack of honesty about their religion, since it drives their homespun lifestyle. You can separate the two. It's not like they woke up one day and said "let's have litters of puppies, I mean, kids".
Please don't paint all homeschoolers as poorly educated just because a few people are doing a horrible job at it. That's no more fair than saying that all public school kids get a sub-standard education because a small percentage of them are allowed to graduate even though they cannot read.
ReplyDeleteI'm a home-schooler and my sons are doing quite well, above their grade level in most subjects. I homeschool so that their lives can have a bit more balance than I see in the average public-school-child's life. (And because the drugs and violence in our local public schools are appalling.) My boys work hard, but there is ample time for non-directed play and rest in their lives. And I think we are healthier and happier for it.
[Oh, and just for the record, I don't think "Arkansasgirl" is a child. That post reads like an adult trying to sound like a child. Read: Troll.]
It does not take much brain power to make the connection between the Duggar family and Gothard/ATI. Every year they show the family making the annual trip to the ATI conference. That is where Josh and Anna met. Not to mention all the links to the different Gothard web sites and resources that are posted on the Duggar's home family website.
ReplyDeleteThe Duggars DO follow Gothard's teachings. The Duggars also have NOT owned up to it. They are deceiving people and TLC is going along for the ride.
This blog (Razing Ruth) and the realization that the Duggars lie to the public (or omit the source of their faith beliefs and practices) really makes my stomach turn. I'm very glad that my eyes were opened to this dangerous and unbiblical version of Christianity. However, I'm saddened that, because they are so in the public eye, people will look at them as the Christian standard.
I don't care what they say, they are not a normal, every day Christian family....
Ruth, when you get a chance, can you expand on the topic of ATI conference speakers?
ReplyDeleteYou mention JB and M not needing to make money from speaking at ATI conferences.
Are you saying they did make money from that? Do all speakers at ATI conferences get paid for 'sharing their story'? Does this include leaders of the ALERT program (just as one example)
Also, you have to pay for the ATI curriculum (wisdom booklets) then you have to pay for all of the homeschool conferences or events you want to attend.....exactly how much of this money does Mr. Gothard pocket?
From what I've seen of the Duggars, they do not leave their family planning up to God. I'm sure that each and every one of those pregnancies was completely intentional and planned for. In one of the older documentaries, Jim Bob even specifically said that he's leaves it up to Michelle. I think that they use NFP to get pregnant sooner, which seems hypocritical since they can't use NFP to prevent pregnancy. It seems to me that if they were truly leaving it up to God, they would just have sex whenever they feel like, and not according to a schedule. What if God wanted them to have their kids spaced out more; how would they even know? If God "only" let them have 10 kids, would they be satisfied with that? I'm sure they're QF, but this is just one issue that annoys me, and I imagine it's pretty common throughout the QF movement. It just seems like a double standard.
ReplyDeletethere's a similar post up right now at no longer quivering!
ReplyDeletehttp://nolongerquivering.com/2010/03/08/nlq-faq-are-jim-bob-michelle-duggar-quiverfull
The part I love best about the Duggars is their sweeping the part about the oldest boy molesting his younger sisters. It got to the point where the Mrs. was having to sleep in the daughter's room because he was picking the lock to their room. (yes, they were having to lock their rooms at night.)
ReplyDeleteOkay, I am in no way saying that I agree with either ATI or Quiverfull (because I don't), but I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of some commenters.
ReplyDeleteThough Bill Gothard promotes QF and though the Duggars are in fact QF, sj3339sta's stating that the proof of them being QF is that they go to ATI conferences is incorrect.
There are many QF people who are not in ATI and there are actually many ATI people who are not QF. Just because both the Duggars and Ruth's family embrace both, does not mean that everyone does...just FYI.
Another former x-ati girl...
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ReplyDeletewhich ruth?
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